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NOTE: THIS POST IS TAKEN SOMEWHAT OUT OF CONTEXT FROM THE MIDDLE OF ANOTHER THREAD
THANK YOU AND HAVE A GOOD DAY!
hmmm I sort of gave up on attempting to read that review simply due to the discussion here and applying an "ism" to a view point towards art.
As a piece of art, I believe each of us has their own spiritual connection to the vibration or frequency of the end result of the process of creativity - or the piece of art. It is our human nature discerning some intention by the artist that gives us a deep connection to the art.
I believe that is why those who are observant and open can sniff out when something attempting to pass as art was "created" only out of the intention of greed, exploitation or some other harmful means.
::ok starting to rant a bit, back to your regularly scheduled non-opinionated posts from me::
Last edited by Wanbli on 27 Apr 2012, 18:26, edited 2 times in total.
ps : feminism is to do something agains domectic violence, male cruelty against womens, domestic rape as it's not a crime in the fucking country i live in, and in some great states in america, just see the womens satues in florida and you just turn crazy. feminism is also to respect womens when they go to police to tell about aggression and not hearing you're a slut and deserve it cos you wear dress and heels, womans pay more prices on car assurance than mens with the same bonus background, of course they have to study more for less earning than mens, a womans can't have a good carrier whithout being judge when a male will be applaused, shall i continue? feminism is not about "equality" i don't care about equality i ask about human respect and social behaviors which condamn womans in a midcentury life whithout any perspective of change, why? my boyfriend is as also feminism as i am, as my mom who fight during the 70's and none support me when i told my rape story, plus? my mom tell me i'm a whore and deserve it cos i'm not a goodam monogamist which is clearly a patriarcal morality to keep their wife at home when they multiply mistresses, so i guess feminism isn't a comfort thing and i don't deal with religious extremist i deal with the girl next door who suffers everyday to being a woman. that's all.
It is not only women that suffer domestic abuse. Violence, prejudice and just treating people like second class citizens is inherently wrong.
Here's an example of what I was getting at...
Say if I were on a bus and I took the last seat. At the next stop a young woman gets on. Do I let her have the seat because she's a woman? Sometimes I might instinctively do that. I know some women may take offence, though. Now I would quite happily let an older person sit down or a pregnant woman. That goes without saying.
I work in a large store, where sometimes we have to carry quite heavy boxes. If someone is struggling, then of course I'm going to help them. Be it a man or a woman. However, on a few occasions I've heard people says words to the effect that they can't lift something because they're a woman. Doesn't that just undermine feminism?
women have been mistreated as long as there have been men around to treat them badly, there have been many societies that women ran, but only the higher up women got treated better. i'm not at all sure that we as men will ever be able to treat women as we should, firstly because they are so durn alluring and desirable and can be so aloof exactly when u need them to pay all their attention just to u...sniff sniff and secondly, though we can relate to their suffering, we can't really know their minds(as men...well most men, some gigolos seems pretty good at it) and so we have trouble figuring out exactly what they want...and besides who would want to do all the work that women do(can u grock my sarcasm that belies the truth here?)? Tibetan men pray on their hands and knees not to take rebirth as a woman, because they know just how badly their women are treated, and yet they depend on them for their lives, have no idea how this scism will ever be resolved, but i love and support women in every way i can(except when i am cat calling them, whistling at them, wishing they were my lover or need dinner or a back rub
then i'm just a pig like all the rest of the men, dunno how to change that, seems it is in my blood
The thing i like best about deciphering Joanna's songs...i'm always wrong.
ok, i hardly understand all you wrote guys as english sarcasm and or philosophy is hard to embrace to the french girl i am. if someone let me his place in the bus as i'm a woman i will probably punch him in the face, i'm quite a strong girl, have the habit to carry heavy camera for my work, mostly 15hours per day, in the beginning of my "carrier" i'm was stuck by men's behavior "oh you're an operator and you can manage the camera?"...ok...it's not about french courtoisie or equality, as men and women are different persons i don't think equality is the good term, but it's all about respect, it's about law, it's political, i'm sorry zygotic but you can't compare the suffering of your struggle about women as womans undergo in the world. there is different state of the suffering, a woman suffers just for being a woman, plus if she comes from a social/ethnic minority and or if she comes from a sexual minority she has this suffering added. Any guy suffer to be a man, to be black and or gay yes but never to be a man, and all the laws of our great occidental countries are turned into that way, and that's why i'm so feminist and my friends womans and mens are as it's fundamental to the way i see the world. @dwain as i understand from your message, be a feminist doesn't mean i can't wear dresses, heels and do not appreciate courtoisie or adoration, i can be also courtoise with mens or womens as well depends on the time, i like mens and womans holding doors to me just because i'm not a woman but it's a good manner, and i'm a 50's adorater of manners @even more than philosophy i think the real kick is political, that not mean i judge your work i stricly know nothing about, but feminism is a real political (greek sense of course) war and especially a womans war, as among the centuries they're plenty of profeminism mens but hey it's always all about patriarcat who sustain the womans league, same league who can't open her mouth since a century... i'm glad my man is a profeminist, but it's my problem not his, and i can have and i have more mens friends, when i discuss feminism i prefer to be all womens exclusive, as dwain said mens can't embodied womens minds. note : all the "genderification" is the real pb, the clue is not to know if or not man equals woman but to digest the fact that gender does not matter
milki while i resort to sarcasm in this discussion, u must know that i never condone a man abusing a woman in any way, sexually, or otherwise. And i strongly support u not being a victim in anyway to your stalker, may he rot in the hellish nightmare that his brain must be!
i am and always will be in favor of single women(i think the marriage contract makes some valid stipulations that need to be respected by both parties) being free to choose what they do, when they wish to do it, with no abridgement to their rights( even when this crushes my fragile ego) by men who try their best to keep women as chattel.
The thing i like best about deciphering Joanna's songs...i'm always wrong.
Oh man, moving posts into a new thread that already exists above the first post in that thread? I'm out of my depth, here... Will give it a shot. Sorry if everyone explodes or something.
@zygotic, of course gender is a "conditionnement social" but alas in this state of history, the reflexion has to be discuss first of all by womens, perhaps in a second time it'll be a great thing to involve everyone but as i already said, feminism discussed by men is again and again an old story from patriarcat, and i'm sorry i'm not at ease mens discuss womens right when womens can't mostly open their mouth, it's an absolute thing, as i guess here and probably you and or dwain are aware of political, womens, minority pb etc...but i'm really upset reading profeminist articles written by men into magazines where the redaction is 90%men constituted, that's all. It's discussing civics rights in the 60's whithout any black people womans have to be conscious and clever about their own pb and i know plenty of womens who unserve feminsm more than mens ! we have to fix this problem in intern before opening our gates! @dwain i know you enough to know where your humor is i'm not against sarcasm it's just hard to understand at the first degree of understanding : it's not my natural langage ! at the end i won't be the annoying girl who always fight but i think feminism is a real goal in the new politics environment in which we live, and it's all day long into my way of living, thinking, with animal protection it's probably the most point of my political involvment and i hope more and more womens will get conscious of the pb and not only "oh yes those poor muslim womens" then probably conservative mens will change their mind, but cool at least two men here are concerned peace @alex, nice job
Here's my thoughts: I'm a gender egalitarian, but I don't reject the label "feminist", either. Feminism is part of it, and a very important part, given that women are certainly more oppressed. At the same time, though, I believe in a kyriarchy more than a patriarchy - people oppress people, including men oppressing women. I don't think it makes sense to try to deconstruct one part of a larger narrative in isolation: misogyny has to be recognised as part of a wider system of oppression, it has to be put in its social context to be combatted effectively. And I think oppression is bad for the oppressor, in many cases, as well as for the oppressed. Frequently, one group is oppressed into oppressing another. In short, men aren't the enemy, women aren't the enemy, sexism is the enemy, and anyone who opposes sexism can fight it.
i already expose this, there is social, ethnic oppression plus the womans oppression, there i discuss with feminism cos it's the begining of the thread we could discuss about homosexuality as well or high class oppression on workers etc...actually it's pertinent to isolate each cause as it's impossible to fight in the same time for the lesbian woman who's a factory worker. plus sexual or social or ethnic oppression aren't the same among the countries but one which is absolutely international in time and location is men oppression on women. people oppress people, ok since human is human it's the law, and master and slave were largely discuss in philosophy since antiquity. and be careful misogyny isn't accurate when you spoke about womens oppression, there's sooo much oppression which isn't related to misogyny, i don't think justice or law were built with a misogyny intention but clearly in a patriarcat way of thinking, which is oppression. how many times saw i behavior or thoughts pro women were in fact totally synonym of oppression, like, pay attention zygotic, mix gender femininist discuss group, when at the end men take the hook (keep the conversation for there own, french translation sorry) and women can't participate. why am i afraid to speak about rape at a police officer? woman or man? cos police is clearly in a pro men way and how many times girl friends of mine were confronted to the "you deserve it, don't dress up like this, don't walk at night in those streets etc..." why should i fuckingly wear burka and not walk where i want cos men always think world is their??? i've the right as men to act in a way which pleased me and not afraid to be judge or agress by men. each 3 days a woman die in france cos of domestic violence, and i don't include domestic rape as it's not against law...and it not depends on woman strongness, the man who tried to rape me is 1.70meter, weight at max 65kg, i'm a 1.75...plumpy girl, i'm really stronger than him but i felt and always feel afraid he can attack me, why? cos world society is turned in this way : men are stronger so master. and as well women and men are grown up in this social condition. i'm against this.
I don't think we disagree - I don't think resistance against oppression should be subsumed under one umbrella movement, rather I think that separate movements should cooperate. What I mean is more that a lesbian factory worker can't focus exclusively on gay rights, feminism or socialism - they should all be linked up, the fight should be fought on multiple fronts simultaneously. Nor, I think, should a straight white man rest on his laurels because he isn't as oppressed as everyone else: living in a society in which oppression exists is not in the interests of anyone, and even people who suffer the least of the brunt of it still suffer indirectly through the oppression of people they care about. I totally agree that it's important to have women's spaces, gay spaces, etc. - female-only discussion groups, for instance - but there should also be neutral ground. It would be a dereliction of duty for anyone who claims to care about civil rights to pass the buck, so to speak, by saying "I don't have to participate in feminism because I'm a man" or "I don't have to participate in the gay rights movement because I'm straight" etc.
clearly not, but i think i'm not the best soldier in the gay movement and prefer to let my homo friends have their own discussion, i can support, but hey, i don't know how it is to be oppressed cos of my sexuality, furhtermore i always live in big cities, which makes me quite of privileged as being in a minority or be a woman is harder in small areas. you deals with men and their laurels, there is the point, it's especially the pb which makes the world it is since thousand years, mens never think of their position as oppressor and even if i agree with you wiith the philosophical non so well master status i don't think the rich white men who's on top of a bank agrees with us as well white rich planteurs were pleased with slavering as it was cheap workers for plantation, and chinese government with all the chinese people as it's slavery workers and defenders of the communism etc...no one wants to know he act llike shit, when you're rich and bit your wife you don't wantt to hear you're a bastars who have pb with your existence cos you need to oppress someone to feel alive. bref, it's always hard discuss feminism as at the end i always have deep discussion with people clearly aware of the pb andd people who are really oppressor don't want to hear it.
not sure how or why my post is starting this thread as I was pointing at applying the narrow lense of any "ism" to someone else's art and not really focused on feminism... er...but...
regardless of how righteous any woman or man's beliefs or feelings, all forms of "isms" only separate us as spiritual beings.
The very nature of the dogmatic principals involving an "ism" require it to be divisive in one form or another.
Division can only lead to cycles of violence, mistrust and war continuing and offer very little chance of peace, healing and reconciliation through unity. I believe we need that as human beings to evolve.
500 years after the white men started killing, raping and plundered the U.S. natives - those they sought to destroy are still here as the most impoverished and oppressed of all in modern society - women, gays, jews, african-americans - yet their prayers and hopes are for a unified future for humans still
I applaud and support your fight for justice and righteousness as a feminist
ism exists cos there is violence, not sure unified future is not a hopeless dream, but when government and people understand their behaviors as oppressor will be a big step. for example last week sarkozy recognizes and apologies for french army behaviour concerning harkis in algeria war, 60years later and one week for the new election...how poor is our concsiousness to not apologies truthfully...that's why i'm not into a pacific way of thinkink and acting, i ask myself if i'm going to vote today as i think diplomatic way is just a piece of shit. so sorry i'm for still keep "cycles of violence, mistrust and war"and anyone cares about peace. i really hope for a revolution in my country
Timothy and I took this opportunity to go on a free weekend trip paid for by the army as long as we attend three marriage classes. Hotel is nice, the town is cute, and we get free meals. We had our first class tonight. It's ran by an army chaplain, who is a super nice guy who I honestly think only has the best of intentions. He talked a bit and then we watched part of some DVD with some pastor talking about marriage (though apparently in a non-religious setting). Most of it was basically the typical gender stereotyping: women nag and have complicated emotions; men don't listen and have a one track mind.
But then, we came to sex.
The most frustrating part was that this man (in the video, not the chaplain, though as he was playing it, I assume he agrees) went on a rant about how "women who have sex before marriage are stupid." He said this several times, about how they're "nitwits" and "idiots" and how young women today "have no idea what they're doing". Not a single word about men who have sex before marriage. At least one other woman, across from me, was offended and quietly complaining but the lights were off, I don't know about anyone else (well, my husband too). It had gone from joking and being silly to actual anger. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised at this, but what the hell? I'm not exposed to that belief on a daily basis so whenever it's expressed, I get so angry.
During this, the main argument of the talk was revealed: marriage is a transaction. The chaplain said, before putting this video on, that he's seen so many couples who watch this and then realize how to make their marriage work, that they learn so much. Here's what it boiled down to (along with little drawings!): women want love, men want sex [enter angry diatribe about women who have non-marital sex]. Men need to understand that in order to get sex, they need to be nice to their wives. God made men this way so that every time they get a boner, they get a little reminder to be nice to their wives, because their wife won't give them sex if they aren't nice (and if men didn't have a sex drive, they'd just treat all women terribly, I suppose). Since women want love, they need to understand that in order to get to a man's heart, they need to reward him with sex. If your husband does nice things for you, you pay him in sex. Then he'll do nice things for you, and you'll feel like you're loved! Then, he actually said, the joking tone of the entire night gone from his voice: "Honestly women, if you didn't have this (pointing to the smiley face on his drawing which represented the vagina...) we probably wouldn't put up with you."
Really?! How are there people that feel like this?!?!? How will being told that your husband lies to you to get laid help anyone's marriage?! WHY WERE SO MANY PEOPLE CHEERING?!
That's... really disgusting. I would say something. A lot of things. Out of two sexes, that video managed to be sexist to both?
Was the video advocating gay marriage? Because according to that perception of marriage, two men would just want sex from each other, so there's no conflict there, and two women would just want love from each other, so there's no conflict there.
Ann, while I was in the Army, they offered 'religious retreats' that were probably similar to what you experienced. I never participated because I suspected that those 'retreats' were intended for a specific type of audience. I wasn't a part of that type of audience. If I had known about your plan to attend one of those events, I might not have been able to steer you away from it, but at least you wouldn't have been unprepared for the message they wanted to share. I'm sorry you had to go through that. I found the Army to be very liberal in it's willingness to provide a wide range of social and religious activities for soldiers and their families...even for those soldiers and families who held very conservative views. In the future, you might want to look more closely at potential events or activities so that you can avoid having something like this happening again.
Well ... this is a retreat. While it's Chaplain-led, it's not specifically religious, and the classes are not supposed to have anything overtly religious in them. I think my husband just wanted to get a free weekend trip, but he does have a friend from his unit here and many of the people seem like people not too different from Timothy and I. Anyway, the source of my complaint is an awful DVD with Mark Gungor (I wrote down his name today). Everything else seems mostly fine ... so I've taken to angrily doodling while that DVD plays. I'm hoping we're done with it. I don't understand how our otherwise-nice Chaplain thinks it's a good thing to play to us. I have learned nothing about how to have a stronger marriage except for that my husband and I bond over hating sexists and it makes me appreciate him for being so unlike the men in the video.