[dwaink]

Weridelves points out some of the clear issues with the series, to my mind as much to do with the authors style as to do with the filming, i would like to rebut some of those points....

""I think it loses an awful lot by never having the core characters interact with each other that much, it makes the whole show feel a little incoherent to me. And I guess the acting and writing is a little more trashy than I'd have wanted. The most frustrating thing for me is this idea that it's just always building to something without any real payoff, it makes for very unsatisfying viewing.""

I think Tyrion Lanister and Arya Stark serve as the authors vehicle to tie the characters in his tapestry together. One could almost stipulate the series is written from their perspectives...as they are among the few survivors.....and that seems to be key in the "game" that very few survive interaction with the "throne" for long, few players in this game have the skill of Littlefinger the coin master or Varyas the spymaster who live in and around the throne daily and actually thrive there. The series has been described as a fantasy Sopranos, wherein characters die off at an alarming rate(avg 14 per episode) and while this can be alluded to as a downfall of the series(excluding HBO's predilection to sex it up) i think it speaks more to the authors intent than any true failing of the tv series. This author loves to serve up interesting characters, develop them to a certain extent and then kill them off before our eyes. We buy in to the character and his/her world and then the rug gets jerked out from under us time and time again, this is not normal fantasy writing...or normal novel writing...hell he has thrown the contract with the reader right out the window...and yet it fits.
Striving for the "throne" is a grisly buisness fraught with failure and death, only one can be king of the hill at a time, though many strive for it and as soon as you claim this prize you are faced with all the contenders instantly. Perhaps it is why Arya and Tyrion survive, they show little interest in claiming the throne and instead seek their own survival and place in this fantasy world...little wonder that we like them both so well.....viva la throne

[Weirdelves]

I've always been a fan of series that bravely kill of main characters, refusing to allow the show to settle in any way, Buffy was always particularly good at that too. In fact it's one of the many compliments I have to level at the show, particularly the first series, alongside some really good characters (the badass Lady Stark is a definite favourite) but I guess a few aspects of the second series are really putting me off. In constantly killing off characters and changing up the plot (sometimes at an alarming rate that's difficult to follow, other times frustratingly slowly) it never really gives the viewer anything to hang onto at all, and I feel this is a failing in the show, regardless of whether it follows the plot of the books or not. There's no real sense of coherence to whose stories are followed from one episode to another, characters' stories seemingly don't progress for great lengths of time while others are given more attention. I feel maybe the show is in fact limited by having to stay true to its source material, because the exact thing that makes a great novel is indisputably not the same thing that makes great TV. Many of the characters are kind of depthless as a result, frequently having more complex personalities and stories hinted at that are never presented in any real way. Add to this the ridiculous amount of time spent on the crushingly dull and irritating John Snow character.

I've never read the novels but apparently it's written from different characters' first person POV, and I feel that the addition of characters' interior thoughts and monologues would allow the series to feel a lot deeper and more immersive as a world. As it stands I feel the story keeps the viewer on the outside quite a lot, and it doesn't really make me want to keep coming back to be drip-fed 5 minute exposition of a particular plotline. Perhaps the series would do better to focus whole episodes on particular storylines (a la In Treatment) to allow them some real depth which I must assume is present in the novels.

Another issue is a criticism that I also have of Six Feet Under which I've been watching for the first time recently; that GoT contains some remarkably subtle and nuanced moments which really work (particularly around certain characters; the queen, Arya, Varyas etc) and then other scenes are poorly judged and flat, either poorly acted or lacking in subtlety.

I guess it all boils down to it being a quite incoherent show that doesn't seem to quite know what it's telling the viewer, there's always so much going on at once and the constant building to no real climax is endlessly frustrating.

I'm always surprised when genre shows end up being really excellent, Buffy did that in a teen sense but Battlestar Galactica is the only series I feel where a genre show has really been made to feel as intelligent, profound, and thought-provoking as the great realistic shows of our age (and I believe it's only been in the last 15 years or so that TV has truly matured as a medium, offering us deeply artistic and challenging programmes on the likes of HBO). Game of Thrones felt like it may be the fantasy show to transcend my pre-conceived dislike of the genre, as BSG did for me with scifi, and I especially liked how the whole fantasy element was significantly dialled down in the first series, it felt a lot more accessible. Suddenly all the fantasy elements are bursting forth at once in season 2, magic and warlocks and dragons and wraith-like shadow creatures that feel a bit like the producers are saying 'well, they're watching now anyway we can suddenly incorporate loads of fantasy elements, it's not going to alienate anyone anymore'.

Well there are some thoughts.

[polliwog]

I don't believe that Game of Thrones (TV series) is written for uninformed viewers. It is written with the addicted readers of the books in mind. That being said, the scriptwriters have done an amazing job in following the storyline of the books, with few significant changes in how the storyline progresses. Readers will have knowledge of those things you find lacking in the TV series. I suggest reading the books, at least through book 2. Of course, next season would require a reading of book 3. If reading the books isn't an option, then you either have to live with watching an fulfilling series, or stop watching it altogether.

[polliwog]

I want more!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wanbli]

Three-Eyed Raven Tease
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RN7e_Oo0 ... ture=share

[Timothys]

I've caught the first two seasons and maybe an episode or two of this season.

[Weirdelves]

Now with the third season over I'm a pretty big fan. Still don't think it's one of the best series on TV but it's great stuff definitely. The red wedding was horrifying.

[Jordan~]

I've read all the books and seen the show now. I love it all! Caught up to the show just before the Red Wedding episode, and when I read that chapter I was like, "Oh my god... Oh my god..." I actually went pale.

[Wanbli]

I thought the Red Wedding episode was well done.

There was a nice tie in and pay off from the very first scene that sets the tone for both the books and TV series.

When Ned makes Robb and Jon watch him behead the Night's Watchman who had ran off and abandoned his post - he does so teaching them the lesson of honoring their commitments.

Robb did nothing but dishonor the Stark name with his pride and ego. Thinking he was better than his dad and getting to marry who he wanted and taking the name 'King of the North'

Jon in the same episode revealed his commitment to the Black and Night's Watch retaining honor (although he supposedly broke the oath with Ygritte - though the oath says "take no wife and father no children" doesn't say you have to be celibate.

[Ann]

I watched the first few minutes of the first episode when it first came out, but it didn't interest me. When me and my husband moved into our apartment, we didn't have internet for a few days and the only thing he had on his computer to watch was Game of Thrones... so I reluctantly watched it. And liked it. But it was really hard to me to keep everything straight. On Parks and Recreation this past season, Ben's email/username/something is revealed to be talltyrionlannister. Despite having seen two seasons of Game of Thrones, I didn't get the joke because I didn't recognize the name Tyrion. That's how little of it I was actually grasping for whatever reason. Too many people, accents, I don't know. I liked it, but I was confused all the time. So halfway through this season, I went back and read extremely detailed recaps of every episode so far. I finally put faces to names and vice versa.

Anyway, ever since then, I've been ravenously devouring it. I'm re-watching the series now. I can't get enough. I adore Daenerys with my whole heart and soul , and I'm madly in love with Jon Snow. Please do not spoil anything for me. I made the mistake of scrolling down to see YouTube comments on a clip and read a pretty... upsetting spoiler. I don't know if it's a real spoiler, could have been somebody just messing with people, but it was frustrating. I've started the first book, and I'm about halfway through. It's odd having seen the TV show first, as normally it's the other way around.

Anyway, I really want my husband to be Khal Drogo for Halloween and I can be Daenerys. He could totally do Khal Drogo, same body type, same skin and hair color. If only the army would allow him some facial hair. He's not that into the idea.

[Jordan~]

Read the books!!!

[Ann]

I am!!! It's just slow moving. Something happened to my ability to read fiction, I think.

[Jordan~]

I totally got confused by the show at first too. So many characters, and I'm really bad at keeping track of that in a show - especially since a lot of the minor characters are pretty similar in the condensed form of the show. It's like, "So which bad-ass grizzled old soldier is that again?"

Some of the best characters haven't even been in the show yet, or not much at least. Varys is one of my favourites, though mainly because of the very end of the latest book and some stuff that you find out about him earlier on too. Wyman Manderly's great, too. Olenna's not got as much of a presence in the books, but the actress who plays her in the show really expands the part. She's awesome in the books, too, anyway.

[Ann]

Even after having read all the recaps and getting much more caught up, I find myself not recognizing people. Mostly the older men because yeah -- bad-ass grizzled old soldiers all look alike. And the names can get too similar. I often forget Varys's name instead remembering the name Viserys. I have a rough time remembering which Targaryen is which. Aemon? Aerys? So alike! I think I'm getting it down, but yeesh.

I'm hesitant to read and get ahead of the show... mostly because I know the frustration that comes with reading a book and then watching it replicated. Even if it's done well, there's always so much "What? But they didn't show this happening! What? That didn't happen in the books... how is that going to affect that other thing?" and watching the show right now is such a wholly pleasant experience (as pleasant as it can be) that I don't want to introduce any element of grumbling into it for me. But I've got quite a ways to read before I even have to make that decision, so eh.

When I started paying more attention this season, I got really irritated because of the way women are treated in that world. I kept thinking, okay, so this guy invented his own world, and women just have to be stripped of power and brutalized? And then I realized ah, wait, everybody's brutalized. Hardly anyone has real power or control over his own life. And the female characters are so great, from Arya to Daenerys to Margaery (well, all right, I don't know that show-watchers know that much about her yet -- I can't decide if she's clever-good or clever-bad, but I'm impressed by her) and even Cersei in an evil way, though I feel her story emphasizes how would-be powerful women come to lack any meaningful control. Even though the women of power, in that world, have less power than the men of power, it's not because the story is sexist, it's because the world is an unjust and violent world for everybody.

[Jordan~]

Haha, I've argued about this on Facebook. I think GRRM is consciously examining misogyny as a theme; not just subconsciously expressing male privilege. He goes to pains to examine the consequences of gender relations in the societies he's depicting for the characters who inhabit them. And of course, he's heavily influenced by the extremely sexist society of Mediaeval Europe to begin with; depicting something isn't condoning it, but I think there are more valid concerns arising from certain (in my view, mis-) interpretations of his female characters. The show does make it worse than it is, too, though that could partly be because they're pressed for time and partly because we've not got far enough yet to see certain characters develop - Sansa, for example, in particular. As you say, there are strong female characters (I've seen this disputed, which I don't think is fair; Olenna is a complete bad-ass and probably my favourite character, relatively minor as she is), but they don't wield institutional power, generally speaking, except through men, and they're circumscribed by their subordination to men; men are similarly circumscribed by their enforcement of a gender hierarchy, and interestingly, the characters who escape that circumscription are the ones automatically excluded from gender relations in the society GRRM's depicting - Varys is the prime example, as a gay eunuch.

[Ann]

[Jordan~]

Yes, the Wildlings are significantly more egalitarian in many ways, but not in others. Ygritte is a spearwife - they have female warriors - and there are female rulers, too. It's their custom for men to abduct their wives, but their cultural norms are such that no woman would want to marry a man who couldn't abduct her anyway, and there's a saying among Wildlings that a man can own a knife and he can own a wife, but he can't own both - if women don't like their husbands, they routinely kill them. It's not that their society is 'kinder' to women, women just have more personal power, possibly due to the absence of effective institutional power, which in the Seven Kingdoms is invested in men.

[Ann]

I finished the first book. I have nobody to talk to about it, so I'm unabashedly using this to air my thoughts.

It's hard for me to read without immediately wanting to write my own fantasy series. I'm extremely impressed with Martin's ability to create this gigantic and complex world with so many unique and interesting characters. I never really thought about how difficult it would be to write a fantasy series, probably because the only other thing I've read that you could call fantasy is Harry Potter and the wizarding world is much smaller and simpler (and exists within our world) than the world he created.

I put off reading the book and read it so slowly because I don't want it to end. I'm still thinking I'm not going to read ahead of the show. I really like the experience I've had with the show. It feels so much more communal. but at the same time, I'm constantly wary of spoilers, and I hate knowing that this mass of people know so much that's happened. I'm always wondering what's coming from people who know what's going to happen and what's coming from show-viewers only. For instance, the Arya-Gendry thing people seem to really like. Is that just viewers shipping as they are wont to do or is that coming from people who know that something will happen with the two of them? Don't answer that. I don't want to know. I can't tell if this thread is book-spoiler-free. I've tried not to read the opening posts too extensively. I try so hard to avoid spoilers but I think I've encountered quite a few. Blah.

Thank god the show made the characters older. They needed to be older, especially for us to stomach the idea of Dany's marriage and pregnancy. I still adore Dany, and I'm constantly worried that things are going to go very, very wrong for her. It feels like they have to, yet I really want her to be queen. But I want for there to be peace too, and obviously, she's not bringing that. I want Joffrey to be killed in a horrible, punishing way, and then for peace to just settle everywhere so everybody can be happy... but I know that's not going to happen.

I'm very invested in the world and the characters but it really is hard to stomach the frequent disappointments. The saddest part about the Red Wedding, to me, was Arya. I wasn't that into Robb and Cat, but I love Arya fiercely and I wanted her to see her mother and brother again so badly and it was just torn away. God that was heartbreaking. And I know more is coming! Agh. I'm too emotional for this. I did get goosebumps at the end chapter with the dragons, though, so I guess I have to remember the power of good emotions too.

[Jordan~]

I know what you mean about it making you want to write a fantasy series! In a way it almost put me off, because his characterisation is so good and I don't feel like I could come close to matching it. I could do the world-building stuff, but his characters are so lifelike in their setting.

[Wanbli]

Really glad to see you digging it Ann.

I will never forget reading GoT in 1997 after a friend of mine who read it was hired by a game-maker, who created an online MMORPG with the world, characters and macro-political system based on "A Song of Ice and Fire" It was called Shadowbane. For instance the desert dwelling culture was call Irekei and their main city was Khar Thsekt. (derivative of Dothraki and Vaes Dothrak)

Arya has always been my favorite and oh the places she goes (no spoilers from me)

Targaryens are the rightful rulers! I cannot wait for the day when Westeros begs Dany and her Dragons to save them from the horrors in the North beyond the Wall!