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¤ milky moon ¤ • View topic - Statistical Profile of an Average Joanna Newsom Fan
Page 2 of 2

Re: Statistical Profile of an Average Joanna Newsom Fan

PostPosted: 22 Oct 2015, 13:35
by r-enter-ested

Re: Statistical Profile of an Average Joanna Newsom Fan

PostPosted: 22 Oct 2015, 14:29
by Jordan~

Re: Statistical Profile of an Average Joanna Newsom Fan

PostPosted: 23 Oct 2015, 13:37
by r-enter-ested

Re: Statistical Profile of an Average Joanna Newsom Fan

PostPosted: 23 Oct 2015, 18:06
by Jordan~

Re: Statistical Profile of an Average Joanna Newsom Fan

PostPosted: 23 Oct 2015, 21:54
by Steve
Dipping my toe into this rather rarified discussion, could I venture that the word "normal" simply implies - in everyday parlance - a correlation to 'the norm', and this latter term can be defined unemotively and statistically. Whilst I do have a (long ago) background in mathematics, I suggest that it's important that the thrust of the argument doesn't get lost in the slightly different ways in which the word "normal" is used in colloquial as opposed to technical language.

Therefore, whilst it could be argued that a statement such as "In Portugal, people aren't normally Protestant" (and setting aside the possible ambiguous interpretation that they may be abnormally Protestant) might be seen as implying some kind of disapproval (whether of Protestants, non-Protestants, or Portuguese people will probably be coloured by the tone and setting of the utterance), all it is really saying is that there exists a statistically verifiable demography of the Portuguese population, and that Protestantism is in the minority.

Where the variable lends itself to a sequence with an actual or implicit mapping onto a number line, such as a person's height, income, age, or number of children*, then we sometimes (though not always) see the familiar bell-curve of the Normal Distribution (though not always: it is easy to visualise, in my third example, that the curve will have a maximum at zero, and tail off into the distance in the positive segment, but - obviously - with a zero frequency for all negative numbers of children!) The definition of what is normal and what is not then reduces to an argument about how much 'tolerance' one is prepared to allow about the maximal value, beyond which a given reading might be ragarded as abnormal.

I might add that there is a category of variables which, although not intrinsically following an ordered number line, can be assigned points on a linear X-axis, or even on an XZ plane: Sexual orientation may be susceptible to the former (with 'profoundly straight' at one end, and 'profoundly homosexual' at the other), and ethnicity an example of the other, where a certain racial characteristic can be plotted against the point on the map from which it originated (I'm avoiding yet more complication by assuming the globe can be represented meaningfully on a plane: fortunately, there aren't very many inhabitants of the Polar regions to distort the argument in a north-south direction, but that argument doesn't hold quite as well in the east-west direction, where peoples trans-cend [couldn't resist] the traditional but arbitrary line that separates New Zealand from the Cook Islands). Neither of these approaches is without controversy, and it also makes light of possible blendings of variable (Where would one plot the child of a British sailor and his Hong Kong bride? And would it be meaningful to pinpoint someone of Afro-Caribbean origin in, say, Ghana, if his ancestors had lived in Jamaica for generations?)

However, not all variable are like that. Religion would be a good example (along with 'make of car driven', eye-colour, and many others): it would be a very artificial construct, if one tried to list these characteristics in some fort of order, and then plot a distribution on the foregoing basis that was meant to define what is normal and what is not. Nevertheless, that does not prevent us from identifying someobvious points of reference: Wikipedia tells me that four-fifths of Portugal's population identify as Catholics, and so it would not be misleading to say that 'a normal Portuguese person is Catholic'. Where a problem arise would arise is if we try to calculate this using some kind of formula, unless it is simply to split the population into two categories: Catholic and Non-Catholic. In other words, a system that tried to order or 'weight' someone's religion, even ignoring any perceived offence to groups allocated low or negative numbers, would be intensely problematical. Try is: suppose we say that Catholicism is allocated a number, 10 for example. Then perhaps Protestantism (in all its forms) might be allocated, say, 8. Other abrahamic religions could be given numbers close to 10: how about Judaism = 12, and Islam 14. It may just be possible to allocate numbers to, for example, certain quasi-Christian belief sets could be allocated slot 6. But then, where on earth would one put Buddhists, animists, followers of Norse gods, and other categories that are only loosely related to Christianity. And if one cannot place the characteristics in some sort of order, then it becomes impossible to plot a meaningful frequency diagram.

So to sum up, I would agree with Jordan~'s final statement that "Statistical norms are seldom salient outside of contexts with a peculiar concern for statistics", but that it might be enlightening to draw other conclusions of a non-statistical basis if the responses to "What is an average Joanna Newsom fan" demand them. If Mercedes-driving Scientologists were in the majority here, it would surely be worthy of note, even if it would be impossible to factor in the effect of an influx of Buddhists with Aston Martins to arrive at a new weighted average.


Re: Statistical Profile of an Average Joanna Newsom Fan

PostPosted: 23 Oct 2015, 23:10
by Jordan~

Re: Statistical Profile of an Average Joanna Newsom Fan

PostPosted: 24 Oct 2015, 11:05
by Steve
Hi Jordan~

Well, thank you for your long, interesting, and closely reasoned reply! I must admit that I had not expected what I said to have been so worthy of such a response, since it was written from an amateur / lay perspective, but for some half forgotten maths studies. (In fact, although i considered fairly carefully what i wanted to say, I'd expended at least as much thought in wording my post in such a way as to avoid giving offence or appearing prejudiced against any particular grouping - often a futile endeavour given the shifting sands of vocabulary, not only from one moment to the next, but also between different persons inhabiting the same moment). However, your reply served to point out several errors I'd made, not only in neutrality of wording, but in, for example, restricting the senses of the word "normal" to the two that sprung to my mind: statistical and everyday. In fact, I very much enjoyed your etymological diversions into "normal" etc, and your hypothetical ones, such as how strictly we should define words such as "Catholic", and whether that group of people has the right to define itself, or whether it can only be circumscribed by the perceptions of the populace as a whole - including but not limited to the core set.

That said, and interesting though it is, I'm seriously out of my depth here with you and r-enter-ested, as I'm sure you can tell: I lack the breadth of knowledge to make my points stick, or even to be sure they're valid in the first place. However, I'll admit to being flattered that you thought I was a Goffman scholar! Is that a good thing?

Re: Statistical Profile of an Average Joanna Newsom Fan

PostPosted: 24 Oct 2015, 13:56
by under a CPell
I have absolutely nothing useful to add to this conversation, just wanted to say I love reading it!

Re: Statistical Profile of an Average Joanna Newsom Fan

PostPosted: 24 Oct 2015, 16:41
by Steve
Do you know ... when I saw that there'd been a comment on here from someone other than Jorda~ or r-enter-ested, I said to myself "That'll be someone saying 'I don't know what you three are on about' ... and I will post back 'Nor do I'". I was close. I am glad it's entertaining at least one other person, as well as me.

Re: Statistical Profile of an Average Joanna Newsom Fan

PostPosted: 24 Oct 2015, 18:02
by Jordan~

Re: Statistical Profile of an Average Joanna Newsom Fan

PostPosted: 25 Oct 2015, 12:20
by r-enter-ested

Re: Statistical Profile of an Average Joanna Newsom Fan

PostPosted: 25 Oct 2015, 16:11
by Jordan~

Re: Statistical Profile of an Average Joanna Newsom Fan

PostPosted: 26 Oct 2015, 11:11
by r-enter-ested
I'm officially bowing out of this discussion. If I ever decide to the end posting at the EvoFairytale forum, then I'll continue here--I don't have the motivation to debate in two places and it is bad for my health.

I've made no plea for moralistic regulation of language. Peddle that to someone else. Thanks for your participation.

Re: Statistical Profile of an Average Joanna Newsom Fan

PostPosted: 26 Oct 2015, 11:45
by Jordan~

Re: Statistical Profile of an Average Joanna Newsom Fan

PostPosted: 27 Nov 2015, 12:09
by r-enter-ested

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