[Ququuluru]

[Jordan~]

[Ququuluru]

[Jordan~]

More sophistry? Et tu. I have at least not obliterated the majority of the world's cultural diversity in the name of power and riches, which is more than can be said of Abrahamic religion.

[Ququuluru]

[Jordan~]

I don't doubt that all religions have been misappropriated. What I doubt is that there was anything of value in Abrahamic religion before it was misappropriated. What I see very clearly is a pale shadow of a philosophy based exclusively on the glorification of a tyrannical universal patriarch. I see a double-binding abusive father for the world to feel obliged to love. Let's stop pretending that Yahweh was anything more than the effort of the Hebrew people's ruling class to prevent their power from being eroded to nothing by assimilation at the hands of their numerous conquerors. It was a power ideology from the very moment it abandoned the other Aramaic gods, and the same is true of all of its descendants. We would not be talking about Jesus or reading the Bible if the Roman Empire had not been collapsing when Jerusalem was crawling with prophets and the Classical world ripe with the spirit of syncretism required to combine them all into one conveniently vague chthonic god-hero mouthpiece. Christianity, as we know it today, was never anything more than the effort of the Roman state to usurp control over popular religious trends (such as Orpheanism and Neo-Platonism) and twist them to the purpose of state continuity. They were enormously successful in ways they did not anticipate.

I find rather appalling your assertion that the products of your culture, where it has been imposed on the rest of the world, are of greater intrinsic value than those of the cultures it displaced, incidentally. I, for one, would far rather know the comfort and wonder of my indigenous gods, butchered at the hands of Christians, than of that villainous cosmic tyrant they put up in their place.

[Ququuluru]

[Jordan~]

You know as well as I do that the scriptures were edited numerous times under the supervision of the state. The original authors of the scriptures (how many of them were historical figures is debatable until the New Testament, and even then it's not exactly clear that the names we are given belonged to real people) may not have been the conquerors in the case of Christianity; Muhammad, however, led armies, and even relatively early Christians were thugs and vandals, destroying everything that was not theirs and theirs alone - take the Bacaudae of Gaul and Britannia, for instance.

[Ququuluru]

[Ququuluru]

[Jordan~]

Please tell me about these culturally universal 'higher' values. The science of anthropology would love to know about them.

Whatever Christianity is today, its conception was a regrettable mistake which has traumatised the psychology of most of the world and left deep scars which only now appear perhaps reparable. What has been lost, however, cannot be regained; something new and better may arise in place of the cross, but what was taken from the world will never be recovered. You're saying, "Don't despair - Aztec culture has been warped beyond all recognition; the indigenous traditions of the Nahua people are as dead as those of the envious Europeans who destroyed them; but at least we have Día de los Muertos." The only authentic feeling there is desperation.

Something more reliable than your word alone might convince me that you possess the capacity for that incisive penetration through intellectual 'superficialities'. Perhaps the Emperor has no clothes. Perhaps the depth and significance you find in the diktats of fearful ancient priests are imagined, and could be found just as well in the list of ingredients of your favourite breakfast cereal. And I doubt your favourite breakfast cereal repeatedly demands your mewling and unquestioning obedience.

[Ququuluru]

(a) That is not remotely what I'm saying or even implying.

(b) I do not care about convincing you of anything.

(c) "Brevity is the soul of wit."

[Ququuluru]

[Jordan~]

I would have to disagree with Mr Twain on the basis of very recent personal experience.

I agree, however, that it would be best to end this now before someone makes a less veiled personal attack that would either demand disciplinary action or be unbecoming of their role here.

[polliwog]

Oooooo! A fight, and I'm not a part of it...yet.

[dwaink]

"No, i did not know that interesting factoid. My last post had actually nothing to do with Sam Kinnison. I hadn't watched the clip you provided, but maybe I will sometime when my stress levels have subsided a bit. I have seen him before and remember what a wildman he was. As to comics who are just being themselves... only the best ones can really do that. Many of them probably have no idea who they really are."

hmmm after reading some of yer other(heavy handed) religious remarks perhaps the clip i provided will NOT relieve stress. Qug none of us have the insight or intelligence to make any definitive statements about religion(s), what we can discuss is our "faith" in whatever we believe(reread the story of the blind men and the elephant?). u do run the risk of sounding pendantic when u make such general statements though....

often problems arise in religions, not with the belief sysytem, but with the dogma and administration...the original christians had a one to one connection with their god and the romans could do nothing with(to) them, the idea of priests and churches came along after that to thwart that direct connection and to interject some control over converts...people make mistakes and for Christianity that is when the mistakes started

[Ququuluru]

Thanks for your comments, Dwain. I happen to agree that no one person can make definitive statements about religion... that also includes statements deriding it. Perhaps I sound pedantic, that is just one of my many shortcomings... No wonder I don't have any friends!

One thing that does upset me though is when people try to take the anti-religious role as an informed intellectual and try to make religious folk appear to be stupid, pulling their incoherent arguments out of their jumbled brains and bullying people. And this especially when they have not taken the time to research fully the religions that they are so arrogantly vilifying

[Ququuluru]

"Life doesn't imitate art, it imitates bad television."

~Woody Allen

[dwaink]

qug at times it is very hard to distinguish between faith and religion, as the faith people live is usually much better than the religion acts. there is no end of bad things that have been done in religions name

mormons are amazingly wonderful people(mostly) and yet the church itself has done(and will do) serious harm...i can love the people and still despise the institution...this is the wall u seem to be running at

[Ququuluru]